[LDSO] Tron 2.0 Forum

Greetings Programs

I have been going back thru all my [HORRIBLE] map builds I had been working on an discovered that monkeys could make better maps than I used to do....[shivers].
"NO MORE COPY AN PASTE BUILDING!"

I am now "ONLY" handmaking ALL my geometry and ALL my models parts. I am doing this for three reasons.

1. To learn as much as possible about how to go about making better maps.
2. To learn as much as possible about how to "properly" use Dedit and all its functions an limitations.
3. To make simpler looking and easier to load maps.

Atm I am trying my hand at making a Sarks Carrier for use in my maps an to be available to all the community for use in their own projects. In doing this project I have been stumped, so I do have a question for you veteran Dedit users.

I am trying to make a cylinder with 2 levels of inside steps down into it. {stepping down into the middle of the cylinder... like um...here illustration attached. [Need to understand how to correctly approach this so I can make this part as well as the 2 half circle sections at the front and rear of the carrier.]

My Question is this!
How would I go about making this ....

You can pretty much guess what part I need this for.
I just want to be sure I am going about this the RIGHT way, and not going about this the long way around.

"I assumed" that I would have to do it this way...

Cutting it into three layer slices.
Then cutting each individual slice "ALOT" to remove the middle part out
Then fusing each slice back together.
THEN refusing all the three slices back together into one piece when done.

....Is the right or wrong way to achieve this?

Carrier is looking pretty good to start with.

About the cylinder shapes, maybe Xistence can offer some advice. He does that kind of stuff in DEdit in his sleep. Though it seems to me that the approach you're currently taking is fine.

Afternoon chaps

How would I go about making this ....

There isn't really a right way or wrong way to build this - but there are a few pointers to consider.

First off, you'll need to work to the grid. If you create, for example, a single cylinder with 24 sides, 128 height, 512 radius, you'll find that all but 8 of the vertices (North, South, East, West on both top and bottom) are not grid aligned. That of itself is not a big issue (the engine stores and renders all vertices as floating point numbers in any case), but you'll struggle mightily to make edges match up (you, unlike the engine, don't get to play with floating point numbers for vertex positioning).

To get your vertices grid aligned, once you've created the brush(es) you'll need to select the brush that you want to grid-align and jump to vertex mode (CTRL + G, by default). Each vertex can then be "nudged" to the grid by holding M and left clicking it (it should spring to the nearest grid intersection, so you should be working with a very small grid size here). One classic gotcha here is that it is (very) possible to create non-planar polys by nudging vertices around. As an easy real-world analogy, put a sheet of paper on your desk. Then lift one corner - that is a non-planar poly and that *will* cause problems in rendering. While grid-aligning the vertices of your cylinder, work in plan view only (and *never* in 3D view) and you should avoid this problem. For completeness, you can avoid non-planar polys by working only with triangles (which can never be non-planar) - but you don't get the luxury of choosing how Dedit will tessellate your primitives.

One final thing to watch out for when cutting and splicing geometry is the creation of lots and lots of polygons, redundant points, and T junctions. From what I can see, surplus polys and redundant points will affect performance (both in terms of map compilation and in-game), but T junctions (a topic about which I can hear X galloping towards the forum) will cause in-game artefacts.

One other approach to building your model would be to use what I call templates (basic primitives created and grid-aligned to provide reference vertices) and to then create by hand the polygons required for your model. As an exercise, the following image shows two (broadly identical) discs. The left hand one was created by repeatedly cutting the top surface of a cylinder, the right hand one by using templates. Your mileage may vary, but the advantage of the right hand one is that (a) all points are still on-grid (making it easier to meld that brush with other geometry) and (b) all of the polygons that create the visible surface are identically sized (which will in turn make the lighting of the brush more consistent).



Cheers

win3k

Greetings Programs

Thanks for the illustration Win.

I had already been experimenting with the cylinder basic shape an had made one like on the right side.
The only difference is that I had my grid set to 1 for the closest cut I could make while zoomed far in.
So I am glad I picked the better method for the attempt to start... hoping that shows progress in my Dedit use... lol.

.
Here is how my three layer cutting turned out for this part.
.

I had intended that eventually this Carrier attempt would be available for use by anyone in the community once done as is... [AND] to scale it up and [attempt] to recreate the Carriers Exterior + INTERIOR from all movie stills for use in a Derez TDM/DM map.

[I have about 200 or so in HD atm for refrence so I "think" I can pull this off. Only issue I may have is the animated textures "Blinking exterior lights on the carrier, and animated console textures... dont understand that yet. But not got that far so not worried about it yet. lol.".
OH! An the dang moving chair attached to the ceiling in the control room on the carrier kinda like that one you guys made for the very end of User Error]

Speaking of... I guess I need rename this thread for this project.
I decided 2 days ago to put a hold on my other map since I figured it woudl be better to do this an learn more than keep on trying to fix that EXTREMLY butchered map.... [shivers], ya it was THAT bad, dont belive me... go take a GOOD HARD upclose look at the interior floors of my tug transports!... lol

...better to learn as much as I can slowly an simply before jumping into a large project. I DO NOT want to release crap to the community an it be unplayable trash.

[Edit - Next step I plan to work on the control area a little bit then return to the main carrier some more. I find a little break from working on a section clears my head an I make better decisions about it later.]
More pics to follow

Greetings Programs!

Progress Update Report.
.
.
.
The basic layout of the Command section is completed. I have altered the model a little bit more as well as refining/re-scaling a few minor things to keep its original scale/size as it appeared in the all still shots that I am using.
[Progress update]

I altered the core section of the Carrier as alot will notice. It now has a large hallway section as it appeared to have in the movie in the shots of the Solar Sailer simulation falling into the carrier. I have even used photoshop to over-brighten alot of the original HD shots an discovered that there is a second section of X shaped doors on the inside that is only visible durring about 3 seconds of that footage of the interior of the Cruisers front. This can be spotted for about 1 second as light plays across it in the background normally in the footages default light levels.

This has been incorporated into the Dedit model of the core section.

[edit---]
I am taking a break early on the model tonite; as I have alot of stuff to do early; so work wont continue on the carrier untill tommorrow evening.

If anyone sees anything that could be improved in my Dedit methods. OR that I simply missed something so far. Please feel free to reply here an let me know.

...

Only issue now is how to go about ALL the red lines in that would be visible in the layers O section on the carrier where the command section connects to the main part of the cruiser.
[Yes I know I am not to that step yet, but it helps to plan ahead to how that part will be done so any extra cutting can be done now "IF" needed.]
Way I understand it, there are two basic methods for this...
1. the method Dee mentioned in an much older post about making cuts and colorlink them all with the [red glowing] texture which will require ALOT of more cutting in this section. But is easily doable. The ONLY problem that I see with this method that I can foresee is that this method will be a personal HELL trying ensure that ALL the nonused faces have been removed, and as little T intersections as possible to increase loading speed for the carrier.

2. The other method which is to not cut it an simply go with a texture that has glowing red lines.

Which do you all recommend for this? I would greatly appreciate any input.


[Next update- Finished Command section, Front an rear 1/4 circle sections to be added]
Pics to follow with next posting...

tronfaq wrote:...maybe Xistence can offer some advice. He does that kind of stuff in DEdit in his sleep

If i get the sleep . I'll try to prepare a tutorial for this request on friday/saturday. Sry, can't be earlier as we have to prepare a release on thursday at work, so i'm pretty much busy.

ugh... well after a VERY non-enjoyable stint with a 48hr stomach virus... work is starting back on the carrier tonite.

Greetings Programs

Progress Update Report.

I am ATM recreating the multiple ring cuts as pictured in the illustration shown in a previous post by me here. I am doing this as I am having alot of issues making all the other adjacent piece cuts mate up properly.
[PLUS]= I also; after some heavy screenshot reviewing; noticed that my layered circular area was "NOT" properly to scale with the rest of the carrier.

I judged this via this...
...a self constructed shot of the side of the carrier. These shots were cliped together from HD shots of the Carrier as it was shown in the ONLY side view of the ship from the movie.
- aka - as the carrier passed thru the canyons after the solar sailer passed a open section in the canyon shortly before ramming the sailer.

...an yes I know this isnt REALLY needed as mine was close already... BUT, I dont want to just slap something together and release it for public downloading for map use.
I plan to get this to within a minimum 90% accurate recreation of the ships original size/scaling or higher before I release this to the community. That way, we will ALL have a VERY accurate recreation of the ship from the original film.


Also, I am starting unneeded faces cleanup as well tonight. This will be nearly the last of the "basic or EXTERNAL ONLY" Sark Carrier model work before texturing work will begin.

I will post new pics and an Update below with new screenshots of my progress before bed much later tonight.


Also...
- I will be online the forum here till I go to bed tonight, so if anyone wants to have a TRON MP LC/or/Derez match. Please feel free to give me a yell here or at my KingKaddish @ yahoo email address and I will hop on.
[Running updated Tron 2.0 + Killer APP mod for those interested in a match]

[Edit #2 Illustration corrected to newest one.]

Greetings Programs!

Progress Update Report.
.
.
.
As promised here is my RE-edited AND Rescaled Sark Command Carrier model progress...
..as you can see by the image in my above post. My Sark Carrier model is [MUCH] more accurate [AND] to scale with Sarks Carrier as seen in the original film.

I Redid the ALL the layer cut areas where the command deck attaches to the main carrier, keeping it in line with the grid at 64. I also remade the complete command deck leaving the main control deck section front face cut out for my control deck floor which I am making separate from this model itself.
The command deck itself is a fresh new build also. This new one ONLY used the old as a backdrop for layout while building.
This new command deck is MUCH more accurate "geometry wise" with the carrier in the film.

Atm, the 3 main components are seperated so that I can now begin unneeded side cleanup. Saddly, I am only now going to be able to do this as the complete geometry rebuild an my pets slowed my progress tonight.

[EDIT]= Since this is a project being done solely for the community as a whole, if you spot anything major incorrect, missing, or just flat out dead wrong with my work, or if you just want to tell me what you think of the work done so far, then please feel free to post here and let me know.
Also if you just have an idea for a new community download project, feel free to let me hear about it.
Dont worry, I visit the boards ALOT during the day, almost hourly... sometimes "alot" sooner, if I actually ever leave them, lol.
So, I will see any and all comments, and I or someone else will very promptly reply back as soon as possible.

I will be back asap with another progress update.

Greetings Programs!

Progress Update Report.
.
.
.
I have officially started the laborious process of removing all of the models excess/unused faces
.
Also, during this stage I will be try to add in alot of smaller details as seen on the carrier in the film as I get into editing the faces of brushes used in those areas.

I have finally mounted the layered ring section into the main carriers hull model. As you can see I used circular cuts following the top angles as I worked down to the bottom.

[Edit]- I finished a high detail version of the connecting area of the Control Area. And I have begun doing all the cuts for the red textured glow strips as seen on the hull.

[Colors will match later]
Update pic can be seen below...
-comparision shot from film used to create section...
...my next step will be tweaking the control section then begin work on a cover face for the command deck and the internal control room.

[Hopefully] when I am done with the model it will look very nice an still be easy enough to load into a map as a background item or for whatever use you can find for it.

Also, due to this I may call upon some ppl here to take a look at a early version to take a hard look at the model to see where/if any improvements can be made to make loading even easier.

I will be back asap with another progress update.

Greetings Programs

Just an update to let you know that I am still alive. Still working. Progress is just slowed badly due to the fact that I have been really busy with work sadly. I plan to do another update shortly. I will also be releasing an untextured version of the model for inspection to certain ppl here on the LDSO forums that I feel will be able to give me very good and accurate feedback as to how to go about continuing the work to do all the fine texture/glow detail work on the carrier but at the same time not cause SERIOUS loading issues.

..if anyone would be interested at taking a look at the work so far please feel free to post a msg here an contact information.
[The only thing I require other ppl who want to view the model is that if you do ask to get to view the early model you remember that it "IS AN EARLY UNFINISHED MODEL" an I am still learning to use Dedit properly, and that I do require some kind of feedback as to what I could be possibly improved or what you feel could be done another way to improve loading on the model.]

I will be back ASAP with another progress update/reply.

Greetings Programs!

Progress Update Report.
.
.
.
I am almost completely done with the model itself now! All that I lack now is cutting for glow strips and then making some custom movie accurate textures, which I admit I will need some input from ppl here on how to do custom textures, as this is another new step for me in making maps.

Here is a basic list of things I still have to do to completely finish all model work on the Carrier.
1. Do an [EXTENDED] Model unused faces cleanup.
2. Search and remove ALL T junctions
3. Add in light orbs in various places around the carrier -[ An Sarks carrier in the movie had alot of them.]
4. Cut model for red glow/light strips
5. Organize the File tree -[atm its a HUGE MESS still.]
6. Review the model for "light leaks"... dont want it to sink now do we?!
7. Make my custom textures


Here is a pic showing some of my continued work trying to handmake all my model parts. I think there has been "some" progress in what I can now do in Dedit.
Also here is the "VERY EARLY Model for prelim reviewing by the public".
-FOREWARNED!! IT IS NOT FINISHED OR EVEN ORGANIZED YET! THIS IS MY [1st] ATTEMPT TO HAND MAKE A MODEL COMPLETELY FROM SCRATCH!
Also, I have not once tried testing this map yet, it has been in Dedit mode only.

So if there are any problems or slow loading please let me know.

[edited - removed - as now a new clean geometry model version is in works by me.]

I hope to hear back from as many ppl as possible as to things I can improve on an learn from the mistakes I know are here and I just am not aware of yet.

...this update brought to you by the fuel provied by too many late night caramel apples!

I will wait for input before continuing my work. In case there are major problems I am unaware of.

...now if no one needs me atm... I think I am gonna pass out somewhere...

Morning chaps

First off, very nice work; you've made a really good job of capturing the key elements of the original carrier, so very well played.

In terms of issues, there are a few that stand out.

1. You have a number of non-planar polygons (just in case you didn't know, if you click View Debugging Level Error Detector Scan Level, you'll get a list of everything that dedit thinks is wrong). Non planar polys are an absolute no-no.
2. You have a number of "point off grid" errors. These should, ideally, be fixed, mainly so that you can correctly align new geometry with that which you've already created.
3. You have a number of surplus polygons (i.e., polys that can never be seen but which are still there). The rendering pipeline will possibly optimize some of these away, but you're better off getting rid of them from the outset.
4. Finally, there are one or two t-junctions scattered around the model - you'd do well to get rid of those.

Best of luck!

win3k

Greetings Programs

[edited - removed as now a new clean geometry model version is in works by me.]

...like I said I am still learning, lol...

But I am VERY curious tho, as to the models film accuracy, what did all of you think [so far with my work on it]?
I was aiming for a 95%+ film accuracte model translation in scale an detail.

ATM the only non film accurate part that I am aware of is the openning to the command deck on the outside.
The film one had a much smaller one, as you can see below...

Film shot My Current version of the Command Deck Exterior has an openning on my model atm that is WAY is too large, saddly this happened on accident. I was "VERY" tired and fighting off sleep when I cut that part an messed it up big time! I plan to tear this out an completely replace it with a more movie accurate version. BUT, that is one of "many very little" issues that I plan to fix still when I get time soon. An just so its known, I stated this is still just the core model an its still unfinished.

I look forward to further feedback before I continue. -[ I am making a list of spotted errors tho, and I thank EVERYONE who takes time to reply.]

Greetings Programs

Well, I cant stand the waiting to hear back from everyone, so I decided to do something very minor to have something to do. So I have been cutting to make the light edging strips for the front of the carrier tonite. Here is pics of what I got done.

Here is a pic of what I got done tonight... It still needs ALOT more cutting in what is shown. BUT its still a work in progress.

As a side note. I will be starting a side project to pass time till I hear back from everyone who was reviewing the file.